Hey, it’s Molly from alcohol minimalist. What do you do in this October? I would love to have you join me in my more sober October challenge. What do I mean by more sober October, it simply means that we’re going to add in more alcohol free days than you currently been doing, whether that’s one or two or 31. It’s up to you, you get to set your own goal and that’s why it’s more sober October, you can check it out and learn more at get got sunnyside.co/molly It’s totally free. I’ve got grises I’m going to be going live every week to announce the prize winners. And it’s just going to be an awesome event. So I would love to have you join me. You can learn more at get.sunnyside.co/molly and you can get registered today. Welcome to the alcohol minimalist podcast. I’m your host Molly watts. If you want to change your drinking habits and create a peaceful relationship with alcohol, you’re in the right place. This podcast explores the strategies I use to overcome a lifetime of family alcohol abuse, more than 30 years of anxiety and worry about my own drinking, and what felt like an unbreakable daily drinking habit. Becoming an alcohol minimalist means removing excess alcohol from your life. So it doesn’t remove you from life. It means being able to take alcohol or leave it without feeling deprived. It means to live peacefully, being able to enjoy a glass of wine without feeling guilty and without needing to finish the bottle. With Science on our side will shatter your past patterns and eliminate your excuses. Changing your relationship with alcohol is possible. I’m here to help you do it. Let’s start now. Well, hello and welcome or welcome back to the alcohol minimalist podcast. With me your host Molly Watts coming to you from well, you know what I gotta tell you the truth. I am recording this ahead of time. And when you are listening to this, I will have just been returning from Hawaii. And so hopefully, I have found some sunshine. That is my hope is that you are listening to this. And I have just spent five days in some beautiful sunshine in Hawaii because if I haven’t, by next week, you’ll be hearing a lot about me complaining about the fact that I went to Hawaii and it rained there too. Let’s hope that was not the case. Before we get into this week’s podcast I do you have a prize winner. As a reminder, if you would like to be entered into the drawing for some alcohol, minimalist swag, all you got to do is go on to your favorite broadcast, I mean your favorite podcast player and leave a review of the podcast or you can go on to any place where you have found my book breaking the bottle legacy and leave a review there. And when you do and if you leave your name and not just plug in, you know the number of stars, then I will find you and put you into the drawing and you too will be entered in for some alcohol minimalist swag. So this week’s prize winner is S J D 0618. S J D 0618. And this is what the review says I stumbled upon this podcast and is just what I was looking for. I struggle with binge drinking weekend warrior life of the party. The party girl I’ve been this character for so long. I have been convinced this is who I am. I don’t want to or can’t believe the story of no alcohol in my life. There are times I only have the single drink. Thank you for helping me start to realize I can change my party girl story. You are so welcome SJ D 0618. If you email me Molly at Molly watts.com Let me know you are the prize winner. I will send you out some alcohol minimalist swag. Today on the podcast. Well, yes when you are listening to this on the podcast I am talking to Dr. Evelyn Higgins. And Dr. Higgins is an internationally recognized expert in the epidemiology of substance use disorders, process addictions and mental health conditions. She is also the inventor of a custom genetic panel available exclusively through her company wired for addiction. And she’s really someone that has done work in this field for a long, long time and believes that propriate diagnostics are what we need to inform appropriate hyper precise treatment I had a great time talking with her because I’ve gone back and forth on this whole idea about genetics and what role they play in substance abuse disorders. And especially in developing a habit pattern for me, I allowed the idea that my genetics, I thought that it caused my desire, and I didn’t really understand that my own behavior and my own thinking was actually responsible for what I was doing more so. And it was a learned behavior. So that’s where this is, you know, the genetics, part of it is always been of interest to me, and I really appreciated what Dr. Higgins has had to share with me, I think you’re going to get a lot out of it, too. I really love the idea that in the future, we can use some of these biomarkers and understanding our neurotransmitters, which I know are key to, you know, improving our overall mental health and wellness, that we could use these in a preventative way, which is really at the beginning of every one who develops a physical dependence on alcohol, they, they, they start turning to alcohol in the beginning, my mother did to, to self medicate, and we need to be calm more, you know, treat the underlying mental health disorders we need to treat and become more emotionally resilient. And that is really what Dr. Higgins and I talk about. So here is my conversation with Dr. Evelyn Higgins. Good morning, Evelyn. Thank you so much for being here on the alcohol minimalist podcast. I am excited and eager, and well, I don’t know a little bit. I am a little anxious, maybe not anxious, but just interested to hear how our conversation goes regarding genetics and addiction. So thank you so much for being here. My pleasure, Molly. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. So tell my audience a little bit more about yourself about the work that you’ve done for a long time now on helping people overcome addictions and just where that passion came from. And then you know, how it led to wired for addiction? Sure. So some 35 years ago, I was practicing in the area of pain management and disability in a rural area. And the method was trying this, try that approach to meds. And you know, half this double that let’s change it and see if this works, with no rhyme or reason. And what I was seeing that it wasn’t working, and some people became dependent 20 years after that I’m practicing in an urban area. But the same thing is going on, try this, try that approach half double. I’m seeing some people move from dependency to addiction. Had that method that we were using worked, I would have never gone on to do the work that I do today. And you and I would never be having this conversation. The second part of my why is that I married an alcoholic. And a man actually who had several addictions. We had a daughter together a year after she was born found out that he was adopted. Now I needed health history information, I have a child, that’s my responsibility, try to gather information, couldn’t find anything. So at that time, I 33 years ago, I got into the area of addiction just to start using it for my patients because the resources weren’t there. And seeing people move in from dependency to addiction, as well as know what was going on within my own family. 16 years ago started the r&d for what we do today with wired for addiction. And that’s kind of how I got there from both a professional as well as a personal reason. Okay, so let’s talk about so we can just start from the beginning in terms of letting the audience know what what wired for addiction is. So give me a brief synopsis on exactly what you do at Wired for addiction. Sure. So we’re a company that uses biomarkers to look at the biology of someone’s mental health and addiction. So we look at 85 Different biomarkers to say Could there be a predisposition towards and to me, perfect world like I did a TED talk, understanding the biomarkers of addiction. And in that I talked about if as a kid, you knew this, you know, would you make different decisions still up to the individual? Right, but we all know saying in our individual families, well, you know, there’s a lot of cancer in our families. There’s a lot of cardiovascular disease in our families, there’s a lot of mental health or addiction and we should know that information as well. In the area of addiction. It’s this mentality of moral flaw. And we say to people like you got yourself there, you can get yourself out and we fail to use technology to advance this area. every other area of healthcare has used technology to advance how we treat individuals. Yet in this area, we still say get yourself there good luck. It’s it’s beyond comprehension. Then in 2023, we still practice like, it’s 1970. Yeah, for sure. I you and I aligned on that completely the fact that the recovery system or the recovery programs and and the way that we we treat physical dependence and physical addictions is antiquated and quite honestly, based on many things, like the 12 step system, which was, you know, had was no basis in science whatsoever, and is oftentimes, court ordered still, there’s 12 step recovery systems that have a very low success rate so that you and I agree on completely. The, the the science piece, okay, so I hear what you’re telling me. So basically, you’re going in, you’re doing and if I, and I read up on wired for addiction, and I looked at all this, you’re doing both from a genetic perspective and neurotransmitter, so kind of the neuro chemical perspective, which is typically what people were, when they’re trying to treat different mental health disorders, whether it be anxiety or depression, or you name it, whatever it might be. Typically, we’re looking at balancing out some neuro chemistry, am I would you say, that’s fair, right. And most addictions start with someone trying to self medicate. Sure. Now, whether it be a diagnosed condition not being treated correctly, or an undiagnosed condition that they don’t even know about, or a trauma, but it’s that whatever point in your age where you start the behavior, all of a sudden, it feels good. And for the one I have people describe to me like a gentleman said he remembers the first time he had beer at four years old on the beach with his dad, and his dad said, I’m gonna go in the water, hold my beer. He said, I took some and I still remember that feeling. And everyone describes it to me as that first feeling that they had of like, Wow, I feel different. And this feels good. And self medicating works until it doesn’t work. And then that becomes the new problem. So in my research on studying all this, so my background comes from I am the adult child of an alcoholic, my mom actually passed away from her disease, not until she was over until she was 81 years old, but and her father was died of alcohol related issues as well. At least that’s that’s what I believe back in those days, they call it like consumption or, you know, something ridiculous back. And so, but that for me, so what I, what I used to believe about that, and I never, and I agree with you that my mother developed her dependence based on probably trying to self medicate. Okay. The thing that I am curious about, in all the research that I’ve seen is that the genetics, like the genetic difference, the predisposition to abuse, alcohol or any other type of substance or activity, you know, because we can get addicted to behaviors to is at most responsible for 50% of said behavior, which is that, does that align with what you are what you hear? Or you studied? Or, or research? Yeah, okay. And so, the thing that I, that and I agree with you completely, people are, that we develop a physical dependence, we develop an addiction, psychological addiction as well to substances or behaviors in an attempt to medicate or escape from typically mental health disorders or some, you know, or, or our problems, right, whether it’s a mental health disorder, or just simply life. Right. So, I guess we’re the, the thing that I never want to, and I, and I believe that people who suffer from mental health disorders or any type of thing that they get relief, when they take medication, they should absolutely be taking medication, right. That’s just a that is something that is a tool and a useful tool. The thing that I want to always be clear on with folks is that it’s not a it’s not a it’s not a silver bullet. It’s not a magic. It’s not magic solution, right? People are still going to have to do the work of managing their minds, managing their emotions and learning how to become more emotionally resilient. Absolutely. So that’s the end that’s I think the part that I just want to you know, that I’m always leery of, I don’t want anybody to think okay, well, if I find out that I have this, you know, Though I have a gene and I have these notes, I can take a pill and everything is gonna be fine. And I’m never gonna have to worry about it ever again. That’s just not the way that it. That’s not the way it works. Right? Right. So epi genetics, probably the most fascinating part of science in our current time. kind of explains all this, right? We’re born with our DNA, here’s your cards, play them out, that doesn’t change. But what can change is the expression of your DNA. So I’ll have people say, you know, I never saw this behavior until my son was 30 years old, never saw anything like a correct because the environmental stressors had never made those genes turn on, turn off. That’s the whole epigenetics here. So identifying this as your DNA, it’s there. That knowledge then is like, okay, so this is not a place that I have wiggle room. And I need to be cognizant, moving forward in my life when my buddies are like, hey, good idea. This is what we’re gonna do after school today, that you don’t necessarily say I’m all in, let’s do this. Right? It’s just identifying like anything else. This is where our weaknesses, we all have strengths and weaknesses in everything. To know that there’s a weakness here. Yes. So that epi genetics portion of it is the game changer. Okay. And so is your, so is this helpful for people that are already, you know, that have already expressed the genes that are already in the addiction? Absolutely. Cycle? Are they okay, so tell me about that. Okay, I got a call this morning from a mom, son, adult son has been in 27 treatment facilities. Right, because physiology had never been changed. So we know what makes any of the addiction so complex, is that it’s a bio psychosocial disease. We know that. But we deal with the psychosocial but the bio, we don’t really touch other than make sure you get eight to nine hours of sleep, make sure you’re hydrated, eat good foods, that kind of thing. the physiology of the individual is what allows us to move forward into what’s available today to say this is precision based. This is based on this individual, not just willy nilly, like where we started out the conversation when I said try this, try that we should be on that. Yeah. So okay, so I love that. So everything because I agree about the individualization right? We are all I mean, I talked with people all the time about the fact that you know, it’s your own beautiful, brilliant human brain, right? And we are all different. And we all have different chemical makeups. Yep. So in this protocol, or in this, this, this evaluation that you do for people, so tell me about that. So they is this, and how does that work? For individuals, you work with? Individuals, you work with? Substance abuse, recovery? Is it something that somebody that doesn’t? So let’s say it we’re talking ahead of the curve, we’re not somebody that isn’t, doesn’t have a, an addiction, but is concerned about because I work? My My work is typically not with people who are who would consider themselves physically dependent. It is not with people who are but anybody that’s, that’s using alcohol or overusing alcohol. It’s a spectrum. Right? So there’s two beer, right. So we have the, the, the potential for developing a physical dependence, so they may be concerned about it, I guess, is what I’m saying. So is this is this what you’re providing? Is what wired for addiction provides? Is that suitable or something that would be beneficial for somebody who is just concerned about it down the road? Is that where we want to do the most impact? Absolutely. To me, that would be the sweet spot, that would be a big spot, because let’s not get to that point ever. Let’s identify, you know where our weaknesses are. And depending on what’s happening in our life, we’re already armed with that information, we can cut it off at the past, that would be the perfect world of how to use this. Were used by treatment centers, physicians, all different types of clinicians, from therapists to coaches. Were in the criminal justice system. We’ve even treated people in prisons. It it really is applicable across the board. So is it is it is it insurance based? Or is it all private pay, kind of at this point, it’s private pay, we did have a very large insurer come to us, which is a great sign. Yeah, they want to do a pilot program because they want to show the efficacy of this to then have it paid for by insurance. And if one of them, we’ll know how insurance works, right. One of the big guys picks it up. Everybody else says Well, now we have to because they have a right it’s not because really there’s a concern for the individual. But that’s a really good sign that that’s already happened and they came to us to do it. That’s really good. Okay, but right now people can individually without I mean, just just can they? Can they activate this themselves? Personally? Just? Yeah. one on one basis? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, it looks to me like you talk with somebody you kind of do maybe a background kind of learning more about the individual person, then you do these, these genetic tests or these these? Is it saliva? Is it what how’s that? Or tell me what the test looks like buccal swab for the genetic snip part of it, the single nucleotide, polymorphisms, saliva, on the neurotransmitter, and urine. So it’s all of that an individual would contact us, you can go to our website wired for addiction all spelled out and have a consultation? Is this something what’s going on with you, you know? And just, is there cards out what’s happening? Is this something that would benefit me? Or should I be going in a different direction, so we have our wire for addictions coalition start there. And then we drop ship all over the world, we literally have patients from across the globe, and makes it very convenient. Also another way, if somebody doesn’t want to go to an inpatient treatment facility, that you can stay in your job, you can stay in your life and your family and your home and do this as well. So a lot of different options that meet people where they’re at. Okay, okay, this is again, and it’s kind of one of those where we were where you were saying, you know, this the moral story and right people are typically lots of times not addressing, and that’s really where my work starts is that I’m trying to help people change this relationship, specifically with alcohol, before they get to, you know, before they ever get to the psychological and physical dependence, right, we’ve got an I would have said that I had my personally after even despite being an adult child of an alcoholic and watching alcohol, you know, ruin my mother’s life, I still learned behavior turned towards alcohol and didn’t just cut it out in my life, even with the knowledge, right. So I mean, intellectually, I could have believed that I had a genetic link to it, but regardless, and probably knew I had a genetic predisposition towards depression or anxiety, things of that nature. I still, that still didn’t prevent me from right. Yeah. And I was gonna say, I would imagine the role modeling that you saw too, was that alcohol was normal. Right? Everybody drinks and it’s normal, and then you get outside of that you’re like, you know, the whole world doesn’t drink. You know? They don’t drink every day at five o’clock. Like, you know, the whole world doesn’t actually do that. And they don’t over drink and things like that. Yeah. But you know, and that’s a whole nother that’s a whole nother baileywick is just the cultural norm that alcohol is alcohol is like the number one most the you know, the number one leading tranquilizer drug right because it’s socially acceptable. Sure. You all know I’m a science girl and that is why I am so proud of my partnership with Sunnyside. Sunnyside has great data based on their user experience and they also have great science techniques behind what drives the program in the first place. Users of Sunnyside in their first 30 days experience on average a 29% reduction in drinks. They avoid 1500 calories and they’ve saved over $50 each month. This is because there is science behind the program. Sunnyside helps you reach your goals and stick with them long term by focusing on three scientifically proven superpowers. One is pre commitment. You intentionally make a plan ahead of time and we talk about making a plan all the time here on the podcast. Number two is conscious interference. And you’ll learn that the habit of tracking each drink helps you decide about it. Number three is positivity. We know this is not easy sometimes right? And we all need a little boost. I tried to be a boost and Sunnyside is a great boost via text message or email to keep you motivated. So if you haven’t already checked it out, I invite you www.sunnyside.co/molly To get started on a free 15 day trial today. The idea that I would have I would have I don’t know. I mean so if someone is struggling, does that where is that where you’re seeing most of the people that you are working with? Are they further down that path than I was? Are they are they people that really do find themselves needing some sort of recovery just kind of like the The person that you just mentioned is that where this is really where you’re seeing where you’re doing your, your best work right now, most of the time it is people further down. But we do have many patients where one gentleman that we just started with, he’s been in recovery for 10 years. But wanted to do this anyway, because of a long line of alcoholism in the family. And his wife also had a long line and hers and they had a child he’s like, so I want to have this, like cut this off at the pass for my daughter moving further in her life. So when people start to understand the power of it, and where it can be used as a tool, like anything else, it can really help. And if we’ve identified parts and someone’s biomarkers, well, do they need support? Now, you may not be actively abusing any substance, but do they need support now? Because there is an underlying anxiety, depression, whatever the case may be, and treat that. And then we never get to that other side of it. That’s the perfect world. So that’s a part of this process as well. So you do you do the whole evaluation, the the biomarkers, and then tell me what happens after that. So if someone wants to engage in treatment with us, we work with an individual for a six month period of time. Okay, so we create a protocol based on that individual’s labs. I mean, you kind of touched on it before, it’s the precision that’s where we should be now with precision 7.5 billion people in the world yet, someone says I just don’t feel like getting off the couch, everybody gets handed the same prescription. It’s like, but we know no one has the same DNA that makes no sense whatsoever. So based on that individual’s lab report, we then create a protocol to support whatever is needed support within that, be it through nutraceuticals, pharmaceuticals, a combination of both just depends on what that individual shows. And is their ongoing counseling coaching support in terms of that we’re talking about? Yes, yeah, yeah, we want to make sure that what we’re intending to see is all happening, and how are you handling situations differently now than you did before? Since we started? Yeah, and because again, I feel like that, in my, in my world, one of the things that I really want to make sure people understand is that yes, you know, and it’s kind of what I tell people all the time, it’s the difference between therapy and coaching, right? So I coach people I don’t, I’m not a therapist, and I see that therapy is what people you know, and this kind of protocol where you’re needing the medication, right, that’s kind of the baseline. And then coaching takes you to the, it’s when you’re able to like, you know, you’re no longer like having to worry about getting off the couch, you’re able to get off the couch every day, because you’ve got the medication, you’re doing your thing. And then coaching is going to take us to the next level, right? Yeah. And so but that is, but during the whole thing, behavior modification and understanding that you have an active role in changing what you do, and how you show up and how you react and how you use or don’t use anything in your life is important. Exactly. And when the every be it neurotransmitter hormone, genetic snip, everything has a clinical correlation. So when people are within the program and the protocol, and we’re working it, and they start to have these situations in life show up, they’ll be like, you know, I would have done this before. And now that doesn’t bother me. I walked away, or I handled it this way. And that’s when I mean, that’s, that’s our goal, right? Yeah. Okay, so six months, just kind of, tell me the, the, it’s just kind of a like, after that, it will reevaluate and see how it’s going. And right, right, exactly. Reevaluate, see how everything’s going, what do we need to do but six months is the program boom, here we are. Most people then can go out on their own, they’ve, they’ve changed physiologically, they change with behavior modification, knowing how to handle life differently. And if you ever need us, you know where we are. Cool. Okay, so you tell me, I would love to hear your take on this because one of my beefs with the recovery industry, and especially when it comes to alcohol, and like Alcoholics Anonymous is this idea that they that people are powerless, and that alcohol has the power and like, there’s no situation where somebody that’s an alcoholic should ever drink, have a drink again, because they can’t, that’s a path down to the dark side, you’re going you know, the opposite direction. Do you? Does your work support that? Do you see that that that somebody that has this genetic predisposition to substance abuse disorder? There’s that they should never drink again, or is it that you see what I’m doing to get what I’m asking? You know, I don’t want anyone to ever think they’re powerless. Yeah, part of what we do when we go over the results, oftentimes people get very emotional to cry, because they’re like, I’m saying this in air quotes, because we’re on a podcast, right? If I’m not crazy, because we’ve identified for the first time objectively, instead of subjectively name calling, and labeling people objectively, here’s what’s going on, there’s a sigh of relief. Because in that lab, if I got back a perfect lab, I’d say, Molly there, I don’t know how I can help you. But that’s not the case. We don’t get bad, perfect labs, because somebody’s coming to us because they already have a problem. So that’s the good news, because we’ve identified where within biochemical pathways, we have to make changes. So there’s a lot of power in that there’s a lot of hope in that. And there’s a lot of knowing that we can change the outcome of the story. And the second part of your question was, Do you believe that people that have once had an alcohol, you know, should they should never use? They can never have that? You know, I hear it all the time, like, I mean, from, from the recovery industry, like it’s their focus is on the is on the substance, as opposed to the behavior, in my opinion. So it really depends on the individual severity, there are people that once their physiology is where it should be. The whole point is, you’re now in homeostasis, your body’s now in balance. Can you do that? Probably? Yes. Do you want to do it? That may be another question? Yeah, you may now feel like I don’t need to bring something from the outside inside of me to change my resting state. Yeah, that may not be something that attracts you anymore. But if someone’s in theory, someone’s physiology is where it should be. It won’t be a problem. It depends on the severity of the individual. Yeah. Okay. That’s, that’s I just wanted to see if that how you how that resonated with you, because I get frustrated because of the tenor of the conversation that comes from the recovery programs that really does again, lean towards, it’s the alcohol, that’s the that’s the problem. And that, you know, it’s the alcohol that’s got the power and you don’t and that again, anytime any we have to treat the underlying issues, when it you know, abstinence isn’t the answer, because you can then you’re still if you still not treating the underlying mental health situations, or the or any type of struggle that led you down the path of dependence and addiction in the first place. Right. I have talked to a lot of people that are sober, that I wouldn’t want to be in the same room with. They are what we call dry drunk, right? Yeah, that yeah, the dry Yeah, the need to control and have power remains the same. You’re just not actively drinking, but I don’t want to be near you. Because you have not changed. What got you to that point to begin with? Right? You’ve been white knuckling every day of your life? Not a pleasure to be around. You may not be drinking, and those are the people that are going to be you know, Oh, I did it, let them look at you. You are miserable. Yeah, yeah. And that’s my whole thing. i My my, I tried, you know, peaceful relationship with alcohol, it isn’t about the end end, for some people, the most peaceful relationship with alcohol they will have is being completely alcohol free, because that’s where they just kind of to your point what you get to write you don’t need to I for 1am, you know, I stick to low risk limits, I have a very high alcohol minimalist, I am the original alcohol minimalist it is, you know, this idea that, but for me getting to that point where I could take or leave alcohol, not care about whether I was drinking or not, not looking for it, to use it to try to escape, stress, anxiety, anything else that was the ticket. And that’s the part that I think is so important for people to hear, right? We can treat that it’s really treating the underlying the underlying factors. And so the genetics is one piece and then that neuro chemistry, which, again, if you’re not if you are struggling on a regular basis with your with feeling like you can’t get off the couch, you probably could use some support in terms of your, your neuro chemistry, your neurotransmitters absolutely 100% in agreement. Yeah. This is really so tell me more about the so you said 16 years of research and development for wired for addiction. And you have a patent pending process, I think for your biomarkers, right. And so this is like it’s still relatively new for the world in the world of science. Yeah, right. Yep. Absolutely. but it’s exciting and I agree with you, there’s, you know, the more we can learn about the human brain. I mean, that’s the better we are, the better we will all be because the brain, you know, even neuroscience is still a relatively new field, and learning more about our abilities to change and work with our own brains becoming more emotionally resilient, it’s going to be better for all of us. Absolutely. And there’s a great study, over over 1 million subjects were in it that from the NIH that was released last month. And I’ll read you one of the quotes here from Dr. Nora Volkow at the ignite a director, genetics play a role in determining health throughout our lives, but they are not our destiny. It was exactly what we do with biomarkers, it was saying that there can be a genetic predisposition predisposition and if we know that that knowledge becomes power. Right, right. Yeah. And it’s also Yeah, and it’s, you know, predisposition does not mean predestined. And We have, we have the ability to, to make better choices and make and make changes in our lives. And that’s where the power lives. And that’s where the hope lives. And that’s where we are finally taking technology to an area that has been shunned and underserved to say, you get that same ability to and and look at, look at where we’re going, we’re already starting to put this information out there with a huge study like that of exactly what we do with biomarkers. And I certainly hope that that will mean that you know, down the road, in in the not too distant future, that it becomes something where we just are finding out about this learning about our our genetics in our neurotransmitters, from an you know, from like a preventative medicine type type of mindset, right? Where it’s just like the way that we would go in for a blood test to know what our cholesterol level is. Right? That’s the example I use. So many times when we talk to people they’re like, Oh, my, like, everybody should have this done as a baseline like agreement. You know, there was a time when a CBC, you go for your yearly doctor visit, right, a complete blood count, like see how many red blood cells white blood cells, neutrophils, monocytes, eosinophils. There was a time when we didn’t even do that. That’s that will only became a reality. I think it was 1967. So that’s recent history. Right? Yeah. So it’s, it should be a part of here’s your makeup. Now go have the best life. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love that. I love that. I’m gonna let that I have to have that be the last word because that was brilliant. Here’s your genetic. Here’s your makeup. Go have your best life. I love that. Dr. Evelyn Higgins, I thank you so much for taking the time. Everyone, I will link everything in the show notes. It’s www dot wired for addiction just like it sounds. And I will also link Dr. Higgins TED talk in the show notes so you can go listen to that. And I just appreciate you taking the time to be here. Thank you so much. I appreciate what you’re doing Molly and having these conversations with people because this is what makes people think differently. Yeah. 100% 100% Thank you, Evelyn to have you too. Bye bye. Thank you for listening to the alcohol minimalist podcast. This podcast is dedicated to helping you change your drinking habits and to create a peaceful relationship with alcohol. Use something you learned in today’s episode and apply it to your life this week. Transformation is possible. You have the power to change your relationship with alcohol now, for more information, please visit me at www dot Molly watts.com