Welcome to the alcohol minimalist podcast. I am your host, Molly watts. If you want to change your drinking habits and create a peaceful relationship with alcohol, you’re in the right place. This podcast explores the strategies I used to overcome a lifetime of family alcohol abuse, more than 30 years of anxiety and worry about my own drinking, and what felt like an unbreakable daily drinking habit. Becoming an alcohol minimalist means removing excess alcohol from your life. So it doesn’t remove you from life. It means being able to take alcohol or leave it without feeling deprived, it means to live peacefully, being able to enjoy a glass of wine without feeling guilty. And without needing to finish the bottle. With Science on our side will shatter your past patterns and eliminate your excuses. Changing your relationship with alcohol is possible. I’m here to help you do it. Let’s start now. Well, hello and welcome or welcome back to the alcohol minimalist podcast. I am your host Molly Watts coming to you from a very foggy Oregon this morning. looking hot, still gray out but definitely fog all around me and sort of that eerie, wintry feel. I guess that makes sense. Since we’re right here in the middle of January, how’s your dryer weary going? Mine is going great and very happy to be working with a group of people in my proof positive group and things are just going I’m really enjoying the this is my second time doing dry every now and it’s so much different and so much better. I think even better than the first time which I really liked the first time I did it. So anyhow, if you whether or not you are taking part of January, I hope you are looking at your relationship with alcohol and sticking to those low risk limits. And definitely here to help you do that. Today on the podcast, I am joined by Dr. Seth Gillihan. And I am so excited for this conversation. Seth is a licensed psychologist who specializes in cognitive behavioral therapy. And he is a graduate of the University of Pennsylvania and got his doctorate there. And he also served on the staff there. He has his own private practice. He’s written multiple books on mindfulness and CBT, which I will link in the show notes. And he also hosts the Think Act be podcast. And I just wanted to have him on because this conversation about CBT what it is understanding it and really how it’s very similar to what I talked about in terms of the results cycle. And I just want to share this type of work because it’s so important. And it really applies to everything that we talked about with changing the habit of drinking. And this conversation I loved. He also was kind enough to share his own journey with me in terms of alcohol. So that was a surprise, unexpected. And I think you’re going to love hearing from him. Here is my conversation with Dr. Seth Gillihan. Good morning, Seth, thank you so much for taking the time and joining me on the alcohol minimalist podcast, I really am excited to have this conversation because as I’ve shared with you VR communication and setting this up, cognitive behavioral therapy CBT, as its, as it’s known, is really part and parcel to the work that I do in helping people change their drinking habits. But I think that CBT kind of can just the name. Well, anytime you apply the name therapy to something I think it scares people. What do you do you think that that’s true? That’s a good question. Morning, by the way. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for having me on the show. I’m looking forward to, to seeing what we talked about this morning. Yeah, for a lot of people, I think therapy can be a kind of daunting prospect and can trigger some anxiety. So. So yeah, maybe CBT is nice in a way like KFC, the fried out of fried chicken and at CBT takes the therapy out of out of CBT. But But I also like to bring therapy out of the office and just make it something or treat it like something that we can all benefit from just in our daily lives. Even if we’re not dealing with some major condition, but maybe just want to live better or do more effective behaviors to reach our goals. I think it’s great for all those things. Absolutely. And that’s I know, that’s part of the reason you’ve done the work that you do is just to is really to make that more accessible for people and to help them understand. And that’s one of the beauties of this work and what I’ve always what I really like, took me took me until mid life to understand the concepts of this work and to really understand how much power I had I had in my own brain to, to be able to direct my life, you know, and I think that that’s true for a lot of people that they kind of live at the effect of their lives rather than understanding how much power they have in their own cognition and in their own behaviors to really create how they are feeling about their lives. Yeah, those are great points. Molly, I think we, I agree, we often live with the effect of our thoughts for one not not, we don’t realize it. So we have these incredibly powerful mental apparatuses that, you know, are, are directing our behavior and our emotions, in one way or another, for better or for worse, and a lot of time, I mean, they really always the first step when I’m working with someone, and with myself II, and you’re dealing more effectively with our thoughts, is to just recognize when we’re having thoughts, it’s pretty much all the time, right, but these stories, you know, that I’m sure you’re so familiar with, can just feel like observations of the truth. So I used to go through periods where I would, I would drink, usually, like, pretty much always not in a healthy way. wasn’t drinking an incredible amount, but just like, didn’t have a healthy relationship with alcohol, like it had to be a certain amount and had to reach a certain feeling and, and so I would, you know, go through that phase. And then I would stop drinking and like, Okay, I just shouldn’t drink. And I would go back to it. And I started recognizing some stories around that, like, it’s fine. Like, I’m not an alcoholic, I just need to limit my drinking. So you know, it’d be great tonight is stopped by the liquor store on the way home, get a bottle of wine, it’s Friday night, you know, have a glass celebrate, and then I’ll be back into that unhealthy cycle. Yeah, that’s where to start to realize, like, wait a minute, that’s not that’s not necessarily a like, news. You know, it’s not like unbiased News, I’m getting that someone’s opinion, you know, on the Op Ed page saying, like, Hey, buddy, you know, it’d be great. Right? And maybe it’s true, but there are other opinions. And that turned out that, you know, like, 10 times out of 10, that didn’t lead me where I wanted it to. Yeah. Oh, I love that. Obviously, you’re, you’re it’s it is definitely preaching to the choir. And I think that, just as you said, the awareness becoming aware, I mean, our brains are going all the time. And we’re, we’re often at the mercy of a lot of unconscious thinking, especially when we’ve developed habits around a behavior, because that’s what our and I talked about that a lot. That’s what our brains are designed to do. They’re designed to take things and automate them so that we don’t think about them anymore. So that we can literally not have to we can conserve energy, and apply it to more important tasks at hand. So our brains don’t like to delineate between habits that serve us and habits that don’t serve us. They just think, Oh, perfect. We’ve done this before. Let’s do it again. And so yeah, absolutely. Bringing the awareness to what we’re up to the fact that we can direct that and we can question those thoughts, and we can and learn from them, and then change our behavior. Tell me and I didn’t realize that was I’m so excited that you brought up your own drinking behaviors. That was awfully nice of you. That was we didn’t we didn’t chat about that at all. But tell me about that. Did you have Have you have you in the past turned towards alcohol because a lot of obviously, a lot of people that listen to this show are in the habit of turning and using alcohol as a way to relieve stress, anxiety, depression, and which I know is really, you know, at the heart of your work. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for asking. You know, I actually just, I guess, just past my five year anniversary when I stopped drinking. Wow. And yeah, and I never thought I would, I would stop drinking, because I always had this, you know, goes back to beliefs. I have this belief, unless I’m an alcoholic, whatever that means, right? Then. Then I not only don’t have to stop drinking, but sort of can’t stop drinking. Like you can’t, you can’t not drink you’re not an alcoholic. Right. You know, it’s sort of the it’s in a weird kind of perverted way. The flip side of you can’t drink. You’re an alcoholic. Well, the opposite of that isn’t you have to drink because you’re not an alcoholic, but I think a lot of us sort of have that. That question. Am I Am I an alcoholic? I’m a non alcoholic. I’m not okay, I guess I could keep drinking. What I finally came to, to realize first alcohol just stopped agreeing with me. Like I would drink it and I, I kept up the habit for a long time past the point when it it really felt good to drink. But, you know, I’d have that first drink and just like feel some indigestion and the hangovers got, you know, like, I’d have like two drinks and not feel well the next day. Yeah. And so eventually I stopped I thought sort of temporarily for health problems and our health Some reasons. And then, after doing it for a while, I felt so incredibly free. Like I was free of that kind of constant sense of like, like have another one. Are you getting enough to eat more they’re going to serve alcohol are going to have enough alcohol, it’s going to be awkward. Can you drink more than people realize you’re drinking? Because I was really good at not showing signs of, of how intoxicated I was. And so, so yeah, it it’s just felt like a, like a huge gift since then, like waking up on New Year’s totally clear. Starting a new year that way. I don’t know. You know what, I don’t know who all your listeners are. And if you’ve most of them leaned toward abstinence, or if they’re those who do more, moderated, approached. So I’m not suggesting that my approach is for everyone. But I’ve just found it. I couldn’t, I couldn’t find that healthy balance. It just never announced. Again, habits eventually. And awareness eventually had to recognize what had been true for so long, ever since college when I first started drinking, I had never really had a healthy relationship with alcohol. So I decided that was it. Yeah, yeah. And it’s been, there are certain things I miss about it at times, but but it’s not the alcohol itself. You know, it’s a lot of what I think we need to intentionally recreate as much as well as we can, apart from alcohol, like the sort of ease that it provides to social situations or the celebratory aspect of it, or the kind of ritual that’s involved. Yeah, absolutely. And, wow, that’s a great, I’m so grateful for you for sharing that. Thank you so much. I definitely, we lean here towards sticking to low risk limits, but we also talk a lot about creating a peaceful relationship with alcohol and whatever that means for you. And I always say for some people, that’s going to mean being abstinent, because that’s just where you find the best piece. And for me, I personally am able to stick to low risk limits, which, you know, gets very can be very sciency and technical, but it’s at the bottom at the, at the root, it still is about not using not turning to alcohol to try to change how I’m feeling. So there’s a therapeutic limit in terms of what the benefits of alcohol and it’s very, very low. So it really means that at any point in time, I’m not drinking more than one to two drinks ever. And you know, if people aren’t ever comfortable with that, and means including multiple alcohol free days, in a week or in my life, so it’s again, it’s very minimalist approach, it means just being you know, and being mindful of it. And some people are, just like you said, it’s going to be more peaceful for them to just completely be abstinent, because that’s just the, that’s where the freedom comes. And so either way works, it’s really just about finding and creating that peaceful relationship and sticking to the low risk limits, if you’re going to include alcohol in your life. Back to Back to cognitive behavioral therapy. The reason that I really wanted to have you on the show is because you have done a lot of work you’ve done, you’ve written books, and you’ve created a card deck that really helps people understand the basics of CBT. And how to apply those techniques to your life in you know, into, into really, and that’s I think, what separates, I talk a lot about in my work, I call it the reap the results cycle. And really, that’s just that your thoughts, create your feelings that lead to your actions. And I know in CBT, that it’s more of a triangle. So it’s kind of like it goes around, it can create a loop kind of around and around like your thoughts, create your feelings, lead to your actions, which then come back up to your thoughts go to your feelings, you know, kind of it, whereas mine is more linear. I bet I always do say that you can move back and forth across the line, yours Your work is more triangular. So let’s talk a little bit about the the, the way that cognitive behavioral therapy is set up when you work with people. I know that one of the things I read in from your work and really appreciated about it is it’s very, it’s goal oriented, and it’s time structured. So talk to me about how that works and how somebody is going to take the this kind of conceptual idea of CBT and start applying it in their life on a just on a, you know, day by day basis. Yeah, great question because that’s really where the where the helpfulness comes from is that it’s very specific and it’s very grounded in our day to day lives. So an example might be if someone wants to, let’s say, start exercising, then first it starts it starts with a really clear goal. So I want to exercise more in 2022. I mean, whenever I reach that goal nebulous, right, like, I don’t know, when I’ve done it, I don’t know when I’ve not done it, I might always sort of feel like I haven’t quite done enough. But if I say, my goal is to be able to run a 5k, by the end of the year, maybe I haven’t really run much at all, then I can work backwards from there and put together a structured plan for what that’s going to look like, like, how much am I going to be running? How often? Maybe it includes some, like diet support around that. Whatever the targets are, whatever goals we’ve defined, we’ll make them really specific, and, and then break them down so that they’re manageable, like, what am I going to be doing this month? What am I going to be doing this week? What am I doing today? What’s my goal for today? And any, we know when we’ve broken something down, broken behavior down into small enough chunks, when it feels almost ridiculously easy to get started? Like the first step might seem like, well, that’s not really anything like I’m just like finding my running shoes. Like that’s not what what does have to do with finding with running a 5k. Everything right? You can never find your shoes, you’re never going to never going to run never going to get there. So yeah, so I think you’re finding those. If something seems too difficult, it’s just because it’s too big. Right? There with one caveat, maybe it’s something we don’t want to do. That’s going back to goal setting, it’s important to the goals actually matter to us, or something that we’ve chosen, not something that we think we should do, like I guess I should run, but I hate running and it never stuck with it. So we choose something that we value, and then and then move toward it as slowly and incrementally as possible, or as necessary. It’s okay to go faster if we can, and then celebrate, you know, each win along the way any step in that direction toward our goal is progress. Yeah, that’s really okay. So I love that I love the the I want to two things there. Because I know in the book, I was really struck by the idea that in or I don’t know if it’s based for CBT always but one of the things that was in the book that your book was stuck out to me was the take action first kind of like so if I’m looking at my my work, like I said it’s thoughts, feelings, actions and actions is kind of the you know, the thoughts lead to the feelings, feelings, elections, but you can step in at any point. And I always say that you step in at any point, one of the things that I got from your stuff was that taking an action is often the easiest thing to do. Right? It’s like you can kind of force yourself into action, when you may not want to dive into all the thought work, you might not want to dive into the feeling work, but you can generally talk yourself into taking a small action, even if you don’t feel like doing it right at the moment. Right? Yeah. And we often emphasize action, because like you said, it’s our feelings tend to change based on our actions, our thoughts change, like maybe we have the thought, like, I’m gonna hate this. And I mean, that’s, that’s a prediction, you know, might be true might not be true. And we could try to talk ourselves into it, like, No, you’re gonna like it. But how do we know? Like, we don’t have any, you know, recent evidence, or maybe our most recent evidence was that it was a punishing experience. So, so we can kind of do a behavioral experiment, you know, go for a short run, see if you hated it the whole time, or maybe hated it less than you expected it to? Or maybe you even enjoyed it. So I think yeah, there’s we can get so much leverage a lot of time by starting with behavior. At the same time, if we do find that we keep bumping into resistance, or just difficulty following through that we don’t understand, then it can be really helpful to step back and ask, What am I telling myself, you know, maybe it maybe it is these stories about this is going to be awful, or I’m just going to give up on this so I start or I, I can’t afford it, take the time to do this. And we want to clear out those those types of thoughts if we can, but we don’t want to do is rely on our feelings. Say I’ll, I’ll I’m going to start writing that when I feel like it or when I feel motivated. What usually happens is motivation follows action. And then it can it can lead to more action but you know, we we build motivation to go to the gym by going to the gym, we build motivation to you know, be more social by being around people more right it’s all it’s and so that’s again, that’s where the you know, that’s where your triangle kind of loops back around it’s like the action leads back up to the thought and and there and then is connected to the feeling. And again, I even though my like I said I kind of look at things in a more linear way on the work that I do, it’s still, you can jump in at any way in any spot and understand kind of moving backwards or forwards, you know what’s happening in which direction, right? So, and I agree with you, a lot of people say, well, they don’t even say it, it’s just your, your sort of unconscious to it. Like, I just, I need the feeling to do this, I need to feel better about it before I do it. And it’s like, I think in the book, it says, No, you don’t know, don’t wait for the feeling you need to do it. And then the feeling will come. You know, and that is so much a part of a true habit change, too. It’s like, you have to separate if you start with the action, and I think that’s a great thing this to point out is like I talk a lot about having a plan in place ahead of time, especially for people when they’re meeting themselves where they’re at. It’s a very doable plan. Not, you know, not a pie in the sky thing, not like, Oh, I’ve been drinking three to four drinks every night. And now I’m just gonna go completely cold turkey, you know, this is it, I’m done drinking. And so they just they think, Okay, this is the way to do it. It’s just to stop everything right now. And they feel bad about writing a plan that is for three to four drinks, because their brains telling them no, you shouldn’t. That’s too much. You know, even though it’s been what they’ve been doing, now that they’ve created this awareness. They’re like, No, that’s too much, I can’t do that. But what I’ve found is that by meeting people where they’re at starting, they’re creating a plan using that logical prefrontal cortex, cognition to make the plan and not just turn to that emotional response in the moment, it starts training their brains to do it that way, then we can get to a point where, okay, now instead of three to four, we’re going to take that back to two. Now, we’re going to stick that down to one now let’s take it to zero. Does that does that seem I mean, does that resonate with you in terms of how that how that how that’s working for folks? You know, it’s all in CBT. It’s all data, you know, it’s, so we test things out. And for me that it didn’t work, you know, I kept trying to set those kinds of limits. And that wasn’t my relationship with alcohol, right? Alcohol, when it got in me, it just wanted more. It’s like, Hey, guys, come on. And like, this is great. That you know, so they just couldn’t open the gate. So I had years of data to support that, whereas others, you might find exactly, you said, I’m not going to drink, I’m just gonna slam the gate shut. But then, like, oh, you know, like, it’s my birthday, and then go back on it. And, and it’s back and forth. So yeah, I think I mean, that I think, in general, a gradual approach can definitely help. I think, what’s what’s, like, it’s tricky with addictive substances, including things like food, and then even relationships or sex or gambling. Yeah, is that there are parts of our brain that are not so much of our brain is not under our conscious control. Right. And our brains can get hijacked in ways that, you know, are not. They don’t lead us where we’re trying to go. So, yeah, yeah. But, but but in general, yeah, I think, you know, the behavior change is, yeah, it tends to, to, as you were saying, a follow from our, or the motion tends to follow from our, from our behaviors. And if we’re just waiting, then maybe waiting a long time. Well, and that brings up something that I really love about CBT. And definitely in your book is I think was one of the things I wanted to talk with you about was the fact that there’s a lot of what I like about it and appreciate about the approach is, there is definitely accountability put on to the the patient or the person who’s you know, not the therapist, but the person who’s who’s experiencing CBT. Right. So whether that’s so if we take it out of the therapeutic realm, and just into day to day life experiment, the onus is on you, the onus is on the person that is that is practicing these techniques to really, to use them in to change their lives. And so that’s something that is I think, missing in a lot. You know, we go through life, and we go through this world we’re looking for, from a lot of external sources, to fix us to change it to make things easier for us. And so talk to me about that in terms of the the premise of CBT How important is it for self accountability? Hmm. Yeah, I think it’s really important. I mean, that’s fundamental to CBT is that empowerment? Yeah. Because the you know, the ultimate goal is for each of us to be our own quote, unquote, therapist, right that we’re, no one is in a better place. No one is in a place at all to be responsible for our self care. And that’s really a an abyss. already and a privilege that each of us have to take care of this one person whose body we inhabit. So yeah, I think accountability and, and, you know, we can we can find more leverage with accountability, you know, if we do things like, I mean, just making a list makes us a little more accountable to ourselves because then we can see, you know, if we’ve done the things on the list, but you know, having a, like a workout partner can be a helpful thing to do, or, you know, announcing our intentions and think like, whether it’s, you know, a new resolution or plan for, like, educational goal, I think letting other people know, it’s really kind of an act of, of courage to put it out there. And then you know, others because we know that others will know, if we’ve done what we had planned to, right. Yeah, no, and I talked about that too, about? Well, I mean, that’s one of the values of finding a tribe, right is finding some, you know, group that are, that are supportive, because especially when people are working on changing their relationship with alcohol, not everybody around them is going to likely be on the same path of the same, you know, and certainly not, I joke about it and say, you know, it’s not like they’re going to stop selling alcohol at the stores, they’re not going to stop serving it at your, you know, events, this is not this is you aren’t going to, if you’re looking around at the rest of the world, trying to support you in this journey, it’s going to be, you’re going to be hard pressed, you know, it has to be certainly come from anything that’s coming from, from your own, I guess I’ll actually go back to something you said is not not so much self accountability, but self empowerment. And I think that that’s really, you know, something that I also want people to understand. And that’s one of the reasons that I get a little bit unhappy with some of the substance abuse recovery programs. And definitely the people that lean towards abstinence and sobriety as the only way is it feels as though they’re disempowering to a person who believes that they cannot change their own relationship with alcohol. And I just don’t subscribe to that at all. I think people can you are obviously, like I said, you would agree with that, I assume just because you were able to do it yourself as well. Right. And I know people who have, you know, a fine relationship with alcohol. And it’s really, it’s up to each of us to decide if and when we’re going to change our drinking behavior. So I don’t think it’s helpful to try to pressure people into you know, I had a friend who’d been in AAA for a long time, who, you know, is describing him like, you know, I’m years ago, I’m, you know, I don’t, I’m not over drinking anymore, you know, I’m careful about, you know, like, either measuring it or just having one glass, you’re not drinking alone, I got all these rules around it. And, and he said, like, oh, so, so basically white knuckling it, and I was like, and at that, I mean, it felt like he was suggesting That’d be better off not drinking at all. But you know, it was, it was a few years before I decided to make that change on my own. So. So yeah, I think we could all it’s probably good for you. It’s tough, though. I have to say there are. It’s easy. You know, if you’ve, if you’ve been dishonest with yourself for a long time and tell yourself like, no, it’s fine. I can drink and it’s not a problem in my life. And then when you when you see what what sounds like the same story in someone else, it’s hard to, to not eat them, encourage them like maybe, right, maybe the question isn’t like, do I? Like am I is my drinking bad enough that I need to stop but but it’s is alcohol a net positive? In real life? For me? It wasn’t? Yeah, 100% on this show, I talk about it in a very scientific way too. It’s just I mean, it is a drug it is a known toxin, it is something that you have to if you’re going to include it in your life, it has to be with minimal risk and low and with absolute mindfulness. And there is no two ways about that. So for for people that and but at the same time, I always want to encourage people who are drinking more than they should to drink less than they than to drink less. And if it if it’s zero, great. And if it’s not zero, then again, there’s there’s gray room, there’s gray area there, and if we don’t meet people where they’re at then we can scare away too many. And so yeah, I’m going off the I’m going off page again. So I apologize. You keep bringing up that you’ve been so sweet about bringing those things up. And it just it’s such a it’s such a great conversation. Before we go because I know I’ve promised to try to keep you to a half hour you’re busy. Talk to me a little bit about the programs that to you Have your own podcast, it’s called Think Act B. And then you’ve got a lot of tools for people to really incorporate these strategies, this this cognitive behavioral therapy, or CBT, which is really, like I said, very close to what I talked about in terms of the think feel act of the results cycle. Same theory, just, you know, I really believe that people should learn these skills, because it’s something that’s going to it’s really applicable to life in general, just managing your mind and understanding the different parts of your brain and how they work together. And so tell me how people can find you learn more about this and, and really sum up what you want people to get out of, you know, CBT, I agree with the things that you’re saying. And and so the best place to find me is my website, Seth gillihan.com. You can find links to my books I’ve written there, what you mentioned, card decks, which now I have the general CBT deck. There’s one for it’s called the general it’s called the CBT. Deck. I have one for kids and teens, which I co wrote with my now 11 year old daughter, which was fantastically fun to do. Yeah, yeah, she had recovered from her own long bouts with pretty severe anxiety. And I want for specific for anxiety, rumination and worry. It’s also meant for adults. And I think that’s it. Yeah, links for everything else are there? Yeah, you know, this is one of those things that I really feel like, we need to do a much better job teaching our children earlier and more often about the power of their own brains and directing and understanding how much power they have in creating the feelings that they want to you know, that’s one of the reasons that I’m so passionate about this is that we didn’t, I didn’t, I never learned about it until I was in my middle age, when when I was a kid, you know, we had this like, circle wheel, like, are you feeling this way, and we kind of, you know, talk about it, but we typically like avoided a lot of understanding between our cognitions and our feelings. And that’s something that to me was really missing just, I still I could recognize a feeling that I still felt like it was happening to me, as opposed to, to understanding that many of the thoughts that I was having was actually creating the feeling. So it’s just so important. And your work is so important to getting this out to the mainstream and really having people and what I appreciated most about your books, and I’m sure the deck is also reflective of that is just putting us in small bite size chunks that are easy to digest, and easy to understand and easy to implement. And I think that’s so important, because it’s it should be if it’s not accessible, and it’s not easy. Nobody’s gonna do it. I agree. Yeah. That’s that’s certainly what I aim for. And I appreciate the conversation with you, Molly. Thank you for an enjoyable time together. Absolutely. Seth, thank you so much for being here. And I will link everything in the show notes, folks. Go check out all of Dr. Seth Callaghan’s work, and really use it in your own life. It’s in that it’s just a great tool to have in your in your deck of learning. If it’s a deck, pick up the deck or your book or the books, a great tool to have to help you whether it’s changing your relationship with alcohol, or really any habit that doesn’t serve you. Thank you. All right, and thanks for everything you’re doing. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks. Thank you for listening to the alcohol minimalist podcast. This podcast is dedicated to helping you change your drinking habits and to create a peaceful relationship with alcohol. Use something you learned in today’s episode and apply it to your life this week. Transformation is possible. You have the power to change your relationship with alcohol. Now, for more information, please visit me at www dot Molly watts.com